Path: christian Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian From: conan@durban.berkeley.edu (David Cruz-Uribe) Subject: Re: nicene creed Organization: U.C. Berkeley Math. Department. Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Our moderator writes, in response to a post of the Nicene creed in Latin: >[Thanks. I got a number of responses to this. It doesn't seem to >make sense to post them all. My thanks to the others who replied. >Note by the way that the word "Filioque" ("and the father") is a >Western addition, not present in the version of the creed originally >agreed on. It is not accepted in the East. --clh] First, don't you mean "and the son" for "Filioque"? [yes --clh] Second, it is worth noting that the creed given in the previous post, while called the Nicene creed, has some differences. The creed as used by Catholics was put in its final form at the Council of Trent. I do not have the original Nicene creed (as approved by that council) in front of me, so I can't comment on the precise differences. There are some minor additions (i.e. additions which, unlike "filioque", do not represent any major doctrinal points), and a long section anathemizing (sp?) the Arians is no longer used. I would be interested if someone could post the actual text from the 4th century (as well as the original source since many of the Canons of Nicea were lost in antiquity). Also, it would be interesting to see the text used by the Orthodox. Does it have any differences from the Western creed (besides "filioque")? Lastly, while typing in the Latin text, I noticed that it said "consubstantialem Patri". The modern English translation is "one in being with the Father", as opposed to the more literal "one in substance" or "consubstantial with the Father". Does anyone think that this is an important difference? Yours in Christ, David Cruz-Uribe, SFO [The Creed that was posted is the Creed of the 150 Fathers of Constantinople, also called the Constantinopolitan Creed or even the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed. It's a variant of the original Nicene Creed, but is used liturgically as the Nicene Creed. It was published at the Council of Chalcedon in 451, but at that council was claimed to be the product of the Council of Constantinople in 381. Unfortunately, we don't see it in the records of that council, and it wasn't popularly used before Chalcedon, so the exact history is unclear, but the editor of Creeds of Christendom (Leith) thinks it was in some sense the product of that council. I admit that that copy of the Constantinopolitan Creed that I have is in English, so I can't compare it word for word. But your Latin text, which is the current liturgical one, seems identical to the English below, which represents the wording from 381/451, except for two differences: (1) the Filioque, and (2) one minor wording change regarding Mary: the older text says begotten by the Holy Spirit *and* the Virgin Mary; the current liturgical text was changed somewhat later to the Holy Spirit *of* the Virgin Mary -- I believe an change from "et" to "ex" -- another poster gave the details on this, but it seemed unnecessary for the purposes of the original question. Thus I think it's safe to trace the creed to 381/451, rather than Trent. I believe the "of one being" is intended as a translation of the Greek, which is "homoousion". The Latin "consubstantialem" was intended to be equivalent, but may be slightly less abstract. At any rate, different translators seem to use essense, reality, and substance more or less interchangably. Here's the original from Nicea, 325. This is from Creeds of Christendom, which references Eusebius' letter and the Acts of the Council of Chalcedon. I've got another source which has the whole letter from Eusebius, as well as 20 canons of Nicea, and the creed as given below seems to agree with what's in Eusebius' letter: We believe in one God, the Father All Governing [pantokratora], creator [poieten] of all things visible and invisible; And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father as only begotten, that is, from the essense [reality] of the Father, [ek tes ousias tou patros], God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not created [poiethenta], of the same essence [reality] as the Father [homoousion to patri], through whom all things came into being, both in heaven and in earth; Who for us men and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate, becoming human [enanthropesanta]. He suffered and the third day he rose, and ascended into the heavens. And he will come to judge both the living and the dead. And [we believe] in the Holy Spirit. But, those who say, Once he was not, or he was not before his generation, or he came to be out of nothing, or who assert that he, the Son of God, is of a differen hypostatis or ousia, or that he is a creature, or changeable, or mutable, the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes them. So you can see the difference, here's a copy that shows how it changed in going to the Creed of 150 Fathers. A warning: while both translations were done by the same person, it's possible that some changes do not indicate changes in the Greek. I've flagged those by ?? We believe in one God, the Father All Governing [pantokratora], creator [poieten] + of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible; And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the + only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father - as only begotten that is, from the essense [reality] of the Father, - [ek tes ousias tou patros], + before all time [pro panton ton aionon] God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not created [poiethenta], of the same essence [reality] as the Father [homoousion to patri], through whom all things came into being, - both in heaven and in earth; Who for us men and - for ?? + because of ?? our salvation, came down + from heaven, and was incarnate + by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary , becoming human [enanthropesanta]. He + was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and + was buried, and rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures, - the third day he rose, and ascended into the heavens. + and sits on the right hand of the Father, and - And he will come + again with glory to judge - both ?? the living and the dead. + His Kingdom shall have no end. + And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and life-giver, Who proceeds from + the Father, Who is worshiped and glorified together with the Father + and Son, Who spoke through the prophets; and in one, holy, catholic, + and apostolic Church. We confess one baptism for the remission of + sins. We look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life + of the word to come. Amen. - And [we believe] in the Holy Spirit. - But, those who say, Once he was not, or he was not before - his generation, or he came to be out of nothing, or who assert - that he, the Son of God, is of a differen hypostatis or ousia, - or that he is a creature, or changeable, or mutable, the Catholic - and Apostolic Church anathematizes them. --clh]