From news@cc.rochester.edu Fri Sep 9 15:53:18 1994 Received: from rodan.UU.NET by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA22377; Fri, 9 Sep 94 15:53:18 EDT Received: from relay2.UU.NET by rodan.UU.NET with SMTP id QQxgqp20701; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 15:53:16 -0400 Received: from galileo.cc.rochester.edu by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQxgqp22806; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 15:53:13 -0400 Received: (news@localhost) by galileo.cc.rochester.edu (8.6.9/8.6.4) id PAA09428 for soc-religion-christian@uunet.uu.net; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 15:53:11 -0400 Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Path: genesee.bst.rochester.edu!kolassa From: kolassa@genesee.bst.rochester.edu (John Kolassa) Subject: Re: A Plea to the Christian Right Message-Id: <1994Sep9.195308.9382@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Sender: news@cc.rochester.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: genesee.bst.rochester.edu Reply-To: kolassa@genesee.bst.rochester.edu (John Kolassa) Organization: University of Rochester Biostatistics. References: <343qdn$32@geneva.rutgers.edu> <34h1s8$5fa@geneva.rutgers.edu> <34jo40$7bq@geneva.rutgers.edu> Date: Fri, 9 Sep 94 19:53:08 GMT Lines: 59 Apparently-To: soc-religion-christian@uunet.uu.net In article <34jo40$7bq@geneva.rutgers.edu>, rivk@midway.uchicago.edu (Naomi Gayle Rivkis) writes: > In article <34h1s8$5fa@geneva.rutgers.edu> reed@oms09.engnis writes: > > Hitler was Catholic, although he'd largely abandoned it by the end of > his life. Rudolf Hoess, the Kommandant at Auschwitz, was Catholic and > vehement that he was doing this job for his G-d. Neither Hitler nor Hoess was Catholic. Were either Catholic in 1938, which I doubt, both would have been excommunicated under the terms of ``Mit Brennender Sorge'', the pastoral letter written by the man who would later become Pius XII, and signed by Pius XI. Hoess would also have received excommunication under canon law provisions forbidding violence against clergy; recall that priests like Fr. Kolbe were executed at Auschwitz. > The Polish Church was > instrumental in the destruction of Polish Jewry. Perhaps you'd share your sources. The only activities of Polish Catholics that I'm familiar with that relate to the extermination of Jews was the Primate's 1936 pastoral letter condemning violence against Jews. > Rome held its tongue > despite hard evidence from its own records that it knew about the death > camps from the very beginning. Susan Zuccotti (1989, p. 259f), highly critical of Pius XII, accepts as credible the explanation that Pius expected more overt criticism of the Nazis would undermine the Church's somewhat successful but very dangerous efforts to hide Jews, and provide them with forged papers. Futhermore, she cites Vatican condemnation of German policies; these might have been too mild, but from your post one would assume never occured. These included a Christmas message that the NY Times, never a particularly pro-Catholic source, praised as a sole source of hope on the European continent. (This is from memory; I'll try to get the reference on request). > French convents sheltered Jewish children > only when they were paid large bribes plus permission to convert the > children to Christianity -- otherwise they let them burn. Rabbi Andre Zaoui, Jewish chaplain of French forces, thought differently about the Vatican's role in safeguarding French and Italian Jews. His praise us quoted by Graham (1989, p.231f.) > > The Holocaust was planned by Christians, executed by Christians, and > its doctrine was developed by Christians of earlier eras. I don't think many reputable historians would take your claims seriously. The genocide of the Nazis was motivated by race. Earlier persecutions were in general motivated by religion. The foundational ideology had little overlap. > Every single > thing that the Nazis did to the Jews, barring technological detail, had > been done first by Christian Europe before the Nazis ever came to power. Unfortunately most of these things were also done by most other groups that ruled an unassimilated minority. -- Thanks, John Kolassa, kolassa@bio1.bst.rochester.edu From gt7122b@prism.gatech.edu Thu Oct 13 10:47:00 1994 Received: from rodan.UU.NET by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA17667; Thu, 13 Oct 94 10:47:00 EDT Received: from relay2.UU.NET by rodan.UU.NET with SMTP id QQxllj15455; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 10:46:59 -0400 Received: from acmey.gatech.edu by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQxllj29465; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 10:46:55 -0400 Received: (from gt7122b@localhost) by acmey.gatech.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id KAA23363; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 10:46:51 -0400 To: soc-religion-christian@uunet.uu.net Path: prism!not-for-mail From: gt7122b@prism.gatech.edu (Randal Lee Mandock) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Pope Pius XII (was Re: Born Again Muslim...) Date: 13 Oct 1994 10:46:50 -0400 Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology Lines: 126 Message-Id: <37jh8q$mp0@acmey.gatech.edu> References: <37fsn4$j3v@geneva.rutgers.edu> <37icuc$kfv@geneva.rutgers.edu> >[A better example would be John Calvin. Luther was excommunicated. >Calvin was not. However it's clear that his actions effectively >excommunicated him. I assume that's what one would say about Hitler >(assuming that he wasn't formally excommunicated -- I don't know about >that). --clh] Ok, let's pick John Calvin. Thank you, Charles. Pinchas E. Lapide, in his 1967 book, "Three Popes and the Jews," tells pretty much the whole story of the Church's actions during WWII. Some excerpts from this book follow. To which we may add, in the light of the preceding chapters, that the Catholic Church, under the pontificate of Pius XII was instrumental in saving at least 700,000, but probably as many as 860,000, Jews from certain death at Nazi hands. (The total number of Jews who survived Hitler in ex-Nazi-occupied Europe, excluding Russia, thanks, in part at least, to Christian help, is approximately 945,000. To these must be added the 85,000-odd whom Christians helped escape during the war to Turkey, Spain, Portugal, Andorra and Latin America. Of the resultant total, exceeding one million Jewish survivors, I deducted all reasonable claims of rescue made by the Protestant Churches - mainly in France, Italy, Hungary, Finland, Denmark and Norway; the Eastern Churches - mainly in Roumania, Bulgaria and Greece - as well as those saved by Communists, self-declared agnostics and other non-Christian Gentiles. The final number of Jewish lives in whose rescue the Catholic Church had been instrumental is thus at least 700,000 souls, but in all probability is much closer to the maximum of 860,000.) [pp. 214-215] That Pius did not lack the courage to contradict Hitler, we learn from the Italian ambassador to Berlin, Dino Alfieri, who in his memoirs...quotes the Pope in a confidential talk in 1940: "Come what may, he concluded with calm determination, even if they arrest me one day and send me to a concentration camp, we have no fear. Each one of us has to answer for his deeds one day before God." Count Ciano, Mussolini's Foreign Minister, repeated the Pope's remark to Alfieri in his diary, as a fact worth remembering: "Pius is ready to let himself be deported to a concentration camp, rather than do anything against his conscience." [p. 230] Herr von Kessel, the number-two man of the German Embassy in Rome, during the tragic deportations of Roman Jewry... [said]: "It must be reasserted that Hitler, kept at bay by the Allies, like a beast of prey pursued by a pack of hunters, was capable of absolutely any hysterical act of crime. The idea of taking the Pope prisoner and transporting him to Germany had entered into his calculations.... We had specific information that if the Pope had resisted, there was the possibility that he would be shot - 'while attempting to escape'...Herr von Weizaecker had to fight on two fronts: on the one hand he had to advise the Pope not to undertake anything unpremeditated, that is, actions with possibly deadly consequences; at the same time he had to convince Hitler, by sublty worded reports, that the Vatican was well-disposed which, as far as Hitler was concerned, meant weak.... We were convinced that a fiery protest by Pius XII against the persecution of the Jews would have in all probability put both the Pope himself and the Curia into extreme danger but...would certainly not have saved the life of a single Jew. Hitler, like a trapped beast, would react to any menace that he felt directed at him, with cruel violence." [p. 248] Albert Einstein must have had some of these appeals in mind when, late in 1940, he said: "Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty. Up till then I had not been interested in the Church, but today I feel a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty." The Christmas message of 1942, which pleaded for "the hundreds of thousands who, through no fault of their own, only because of their nationality or descent, are condemned to death," not only was withdrawn from publication by the Nazis, but printshops which were caught reproducting it were closed down or otherwise punished. In this, as in other addresses, the Pope used the word: _stirps_ (race, descent) in a context which clearly referred to Jews...However, to make his intention even clearer, the Pope added: " The Church would be untrue to herself, would cease to be a mother, if she turned deaf ears to her children's anguished cries, which reach her from every part of the human family." The New York Times, to quote but one paper, clearly read the papal message and concluded in its editorial on December 25, 1942: "If a prominent personality who is obliged to the impartial consideration of nations in both camps, condemns the new form of Nation Stated as 'heresy'; when he accuses the expulsion and persecution of men, for no other reason than their race...then this impartial judgment amounts to the verdict of a supreme court...this Christmas more than ever the Pope is a lonely voice crying out in the silence of a continent." [p. 251] Michael O'Carroll, in "Pius XII: Greatness Dishonored," (1980) writes: An Italian priest, Fr. Scavizzi, chaplain on a military train travelling through Poland, knew of the conditions in the camps and spoke of them to the Pope, telling him especially about the Jews. Pius broke down and wept bitterly. "Please tell everyone, everyone you can" he said to the priest "that the Pope suffers agony on their behalf. Many times I have thought of scorching Nazism with the lightning of excommunication and of denouncing to the civilised world the criminality of the extermination of the Jews. We have heard of the very serious threat of retaliation, not on our person but on the poor sons who are under Nazi domination. We have received through various channels urgent recommendations that the Holy See should not take a drastic stand. After many tears and many prayers I have judged that a protest of mine not only would fail to help anyone, but would create even more fury against the Jews, multiplying acts of cruelty. Perhaps my solemn protest would have earned me praise from the civilised world, but it would also have brought more implacable persecution of the Jews...I love the Jews." [p. 84] Now I realize that facts won't change the mind of a true bigot, but I submit them for what it's worth. gt7122b@prism.gatech.edu From news@news.cuny.edu Fri Oct 14 05:36:09 1994 Received: from rodan.UU.NET by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA14008; Fri, 14 Oct 94 05:36:09 EDT Received: from relay2.UU.NET by rodan.UU.NET with SMTP id QQxlog01301; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 05:36:08 -0400 Received: from news.cuny.edu by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQxlog12474; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 05:36:06 -0400 Received: by news.cuny.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17104; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 05:40:06 -0400 To: soc-religion-christian@relay2.uu.net Path: mnhcc From: Marty Helgesen Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Hitler (WAS something else Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 05:35:21 EDT Organization: City University of New York/University Computer Center Lines: 120 Message-Id: <94287.053521MNHCC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> Nntp-Posting-Host: cunyvm.cuny.edu Disclaimer: Author bears full responsibility for this post In the course of writing about something else Victor Healey wrote some nonsense about the Catholic Church, saying, "Hitler was a good Catholic to the day he died in the bunker, he was never excomunicated by the Church." In fact, Hitler rejected not only Catholicism, but Christianity in general. A friend sent me the following quotes from the book _Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944_ published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc. first edition, 1953, since my library's copy is missing. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler's Table Talk 1941- 1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States. All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler. Night of 11th-12th July, 1941 "National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... "The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... "Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7) 10th October, 1941, midday "Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43) 14th October, 1941, midday "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... "Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... "...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... "Christianity the liar.... "We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52) 19th October, 1941, night "The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity." 21st October, 1941, midday "Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... "The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... "Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p 63-65) 13th December, 1941, midnight "Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... "When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118 & 119) 14th December, 1941, midday "Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... "Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics." (p 119 & 120) 9th April, 1942, dinner "There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339) 27th February, 1942, midday "It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie." "Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278) I don't know whether Hitler was formally excommunicated or not, but it doesn't matter. Excommunication is not an additional punishment that the Church adds to some sins out of fear that God may not punish the sinner severely enough, nor is it, as Mr. Healey seems to think, a means of "making a statement" to demonstrate one's moral purity, as was fashionable among what was then called the New Left in the 1960s and 70s. The whole purpose of excommunication is to help the sinner recognize the enormity of his sins so he will seek forgiveness. As St. Paul wrote, "And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother." (2 Thes 3:14-15). In a Catholic society it can have social consequences as does the Amish practice of "shunning" (which is just "excommunica- tion" without the latinate word), but that would not apply in 20th century Germany. Someone like Hitler, who did not believe in the truth of Christianity, would shrug it off. He had already put him- self outside of the Church. Path: christian Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian From: lness@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (lester john ness) Subject: Re: Born Again Muslim - Sadam orders islamic observance! Organization: Indiana University References: <37icuc$kfv@geneva.rutgers.edu> Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Hitler was raised Catholic but abandoned any sort of Christianity before WW I. The conference of German bishops excommunicated all Nazis in 1930 and in the 1932 elections forbade Catholics to vote for a Nazi. Moreover, Goebbels was Lutheran, and Himmler neo-pagan. nazi-ism appealed to Germans of all sorts. No group has clean hands. Randal Lee Mandock (gt7122b@prism.gatech.edu) wrote: : >Hitler was a good Catholic to the : >day he died in the bunker, he was never excomunicated by the Church. : The poster obviously doesn't know squat about the Catholic Church. : Hitler a good Catholic, indeed! That's as laughable as calling : Luther a good Catholic until the day he died. -- Lester Ness lness@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu