From daveb@pogo.wv.tek.com Sun Feb 7 04:02:45 1993 Received: from relay.tek.com by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA02500; Sun, 7 Feb 93 04:02:45 EST Received: by relay.tek.com id ; Sun, 7 Feb 93 00:59:53 -0800 Received: from orca.wv.tek.com by tektronix.TEK.COM (4.1/8.0) id AA07246; Sun, 7 Feb 93 00:58:36 PST Received: from pogo.wv.tek.com by orca.wv.tek.com (4.1/7.1) id AA27543; Sun, 7 Feb 93 00:59:41 PST Received: by pogo.wv.tek.com (5.51/7.1) id AA01275; Sun, 7 Feb 93 00:59:47 PST Message-Id: <9302070859.AA01275@pogo.wv.tek.com> To: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu From: daveb@pogo.wv.tek.com (Dave Butler) Subject: Re: America & Xianity Date: Sun, 07 Feb 93 00:59:46 PST Sender: daveb@pogo.wv.tek.com Rex, in an attempt to prove that the Christian religion is the source of the the constitution and the USA, repeats the truism that the USA was founded by Christians: > To answer Daniel's request, I am following up on the topic of Xianity and the > founding fathers (FF). It is my thesis that the US is specifically a Xian > nation in origin as the FF so established it. While I would agree that religion influenced the constitution, I would not agree that the all or most of the founding fathers, (especially the most influential of them), were Christian. For instance, of our first 4 presidents, at least 3, and perhaps all four, were Deists (I've heard arguments both ways for George Washington). Thomas Jefferson, writer of the Declaration of Independence was an avid Deist. I guess that would make the Declaration of Independence a Deist, rather than a Christian document. For those who don't know what Deism is, it is religion and its followers do believe in god, but those followers are definitely are not Christians. Deism professes a "natural religion" which is supposed to be derived from inborn knowledge and rational thought. Deism also rejects all need for dogma, revelation and "salvation." Deists hold Jesus to be "divine" only in that he was divinely inspired (as could we all be) to empathic, rational thought, and Deism rejects the deity of Jesus, the trinity, the testimony of Jesus' miracles and the resurrection. You will find Deists expressing their love of "Primitive Christianity", which in their eyes, was derived from the original words of Jesus (eg: Sermon on the Mount), which (Deists believe) existed before the record of false miracles, and also the false doctrines of Paul, were grafted onto Christianity. While they express great admiration for Jesus, they in no way worship him. Nor would it be appropriate to declare the founding fathers to be basically Christian because the values in the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights were also values echoed in the Bible (eg: the golden rule). After all, many religions (eg: Deism, Judaism, Buddhist, Hinduism, Janism, Islam, and etc) share these values. These values are not the sole property of the Christianity. Further, many of the founding fathers stated that they were specifically setting the government up to protect the citizens from Christian churches. Not all churches expressed the freedom of religion, on which the founding fathers wanted to found this country. For instance, the Puritans, who came over to America to escape from religious persecution, ended up using their theology as a basis for the persecution of others. From statements of that time, it becomes obvious that the Puritans, Catholics and other Christian sects were specifically in the minds of many founding fathers when they set up the separation of Church and State. That is not not to say that there were not Christians who made contributions; there most definitely were. But Christianity was not a uniformly positive force in American, nor was it "THE Inspiration" which led to the revolution and and the formation of the new government. Now I am not positive about this, but I get the feeling Rex wishes to give credit to Christianity for the formation of the United States, and based on that assertion, give Christianity sort of favored status in America (ie: we Christians are the source of the tree of liberty, and thereby deserve the first fruits). It also seems as if he wishes to insist that the USA was initiated as a Christian nation by Christians, and therefore should still be considered a Christian nation. If this is true, then he will have to explain away the fact that many of the most influencial founding fathers who led the way for freedom, were not Christians, but Deist who rejected most of the doctrines and theology of the Christian Churches. By the way I have noted a tendency for some Christians to embrace the founding fathers as Christian, in spite of their beliefs, while those same Christians would condemn as heretics, anyone else who shared the views of those founding fathers. For instance Jefferson himself stated that most of the Bible (ie: all the miracles and anything which contradicts with Jesus' "Love thy neighbor" philosophy) were lies and deceit, and specifically rejected the deity of Jesus. He had special disgust for Paul, whom he considered an exceptional traitor to Jesus and his message. Nor did he consider the Bible to be the word of God. Jefferson explicitly rejected Paul's god, and the god who ordered the death of the Canaanites. And Thomas Paine was even more vociferous on the subject than Jefferson. The founding fathers were most definitely blatant heretics, as far as any Orthodox Christianity is concerned. And I am pretty sure Rex, that you would deny any person who shared those views the right to full fellowship and membership of your church. If I am right about that, then I would find it quite odd that you would reject the those founding father's actual theology as Christian, but claim both them and their accomplishments as Christian. Later, Dave Butler The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. Jefferson Letter to Adams, Apr 11, 1823. [Of Jesus] Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the the most lovely benevolence, and others, again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate, therefore, the dross; restore to him the former and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, the roguery of others of his disciples. Of this band of dupes and imposters, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus. Jefferson Letter to W. Short, 1820. But the greatest of all reformers of the depraved religion of his country was Jesus of Nazareth. Abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, as as seperable from that as diamonds from a dunghill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality of man ... The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent morality, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture, which has resulted from artificial systems invented by ultra-Christian sects(*)... is most desirable. (*)Jeffersons footnote: "The imaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity, original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders of hierarchy, etc. -TJ" Jefferson Letter to W. Short Oct 31, 1819 I cannot say that I am descended from the bastards of Oliver Cromwell, or his courtiers, or from the Puritans who punish their horses for breaking the Sabbath, or from those who persecuted Quakers and burned the witches. Mathew Lyon (1746-1822) American Patriot and Congressman Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind. Thomas Paine The Age of Reason There is not any thing, which has contributed so much to delude mankind in religious matters, as mistaken apprehensions concerning supernatural inspiration or revelation; not considering that all true religion originates from reason, and can not otherwise be understood, but by the exercise and improvement of it. Ethan Allen, American Revolutionary Hero Reason, The Only Oracle of Man The United States is in no way founded upon the Christian religion. George Washington and John Adams Diplomatic message to Malta He who shall introduce into public affairs the principle of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world. Benjamin Franklin Letter to the French Ministry March 1778 "I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did." Benjamin Franklin letter to his father, 1738 "I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." Benjamin Franklin from "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", Nov. 20, 1728 "I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." Benjamin Franklin Works, Vol. VII, p. 75 "If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both here (England) and in New England." Benjamin Franklin Quoted by George Seldes "The Great Quotations" "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people." James Madison A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785. "Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." James Madison A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785. "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" John Adams letter to Thomas Jefferson "What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine." John Adams letter to John Taylor This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it. John Adams Letter to Jefferson The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning... And since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? [sic] The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collusion with dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes. John Adams Letter to John Taylor PS. Rex, from the above quotes we can see that while these men were religious, they were not Christian, and held a great distrust for all organized religion, and Christianity in specific. Thus I would find it disingenious of you, if you try to embrace them as Christians, and thereby try to give the credit for their works, to Christianity. PPS. Rex, Just in case I did not make it clear, I do not think that you were trying to deceive us, but rather were just repeating that which you yourself believe. From schnitzi@cs.ucf.edu Thu Sep 30 08:37:15 1993 Received: from rodan.UU.NET by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA26938; Thu, 30 Sep 93 08:37:15 EDT Received: from relay2.UU.NET by rodan.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-mail-drop) id AA26009; Thu, 30 Sep 93 08:37:11 -0400 Received: from longwood.cs.ucf.edu by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA21609; Thu, 30 Sep 93 08:37:08 -0400 Received: by longwood.cs.ucf.edu id AA29164 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for soc-religion-christian@uunet.uu.net); Thu, 30 Sep 1993 08:37:07 -0400 To: soc-religion-christian@uunet.uu.net Path: cs.ucf.edu!schnitzi From: schnitzi@cs.ucf.edu (Mark Schnitzius) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: America's Founding Fathers and Christianity Date: 30 Sep 1993 08:37:06 -0400 Organization: University of Central Florida Lines: 46 Message-Id: References: af664@yfn.ysu.edu (Frank DeCenso, Jr.) writes: >Does anyone have a list of quotes from America's early >founding fathers (with preferably complete documentation)? >I recently saw 2 videos from Wallbuilders (David Barton's >ministry) called _America's Godly Heritage_ and _Education >and the Founding Fathers_. I was blown away! I am going to >get some of his materials and hopefully the transcripts with >documentation. But I was hoping someone had an ASCII list of >quotes. Thanks. Here's some: "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." - James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785 "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson "History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." - Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813 "I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." - Benjamin Franklin, from "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", Nov. 20, 1728 -- Mark From weingart@napa.imagen.com Sun Oct 3 11:45:39 1993 Received: from gatekeeper.imagen.com by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA00210; Sun, 3 Oct 93 11:45:39 EDT Received: from imagen.imagen.com by gatekeeper.imagen.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06357; Sun, 3 Oct 93 08:45:37 PDT Received: from napa.noname by imagen.imagen.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16269; Sun, 3 Oct 93 08:45:36 PDT Received: by napa.noname (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00766; Sun, 3 Oct 93 08:53:23 PDT Date: Sun, 3 Oct 93 08:53:23 PDT From: weingart@napa.imagen.com (Phil Weingart) Message-Id: <9310031553.AA00766@napa.noname> To: christian@athos.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: America's Founding Fathers and Christianity Status: O Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: America's Founding Fathers and Christianity Summary: Expires: References: Sender: Phil Weingart (weingart@napa.imagen.com) Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: QMS Inc., Imagen Division Keywords: In article if438819@solix.fiu.edu (Bradford L. Barrett) writes: > >most were deist, not christrians as we view christianity today. They did >believe in a god, but not the resurecting powers of jesus, etc, etc... Jefferson was a Unitarian, and believed things like this. Madison was trained by Witherspoon, who was a traditional Protestant. Paine was basically an atheist. Franklin toyed with Deism in his early years but was a more traditional Protestant during the Revolution, although he was never a great man of faith. Washington was a traditional Protestant. The blanket assertion that "most were deists" simply isn't accurate, any more than the assertion that they were all modern Protestants. Christianity was not the same then as it is today, but most of the signers of the Declaration believed in Divine Providence, that is, that God DOES intervene in the affairs of men, where Deism holds that God DOES NOT intervene in the affairs of men. >The point being, it is not the religious views of the great men who >founded this country that is important, You cannot possibly understand what they meant by Liberty if you do not understand the Reformation theology of Northern Europe which preceded them. The problem we are addressing in the modern world which makes this discussion relevant is that many institutions are interpreting the First Amendment as endorsing the explicit suppression of Christianity in public places, a view which cannot possibly be supported if you understand the religious and political beliefs of the Constitution's authors. >They realized that there are as many >different beliefs as there are people, and each person has the right >to believe as they see fit, without interference from the government. They *thought* they were writing to people who disagreed on specific religious practices, but who agreed on the major behavioral issues. They were correct at the time. Today, we do not have a common standard of right and wrong. There is a war between Rationalist-based systems and Christian/Judeo-based systems, which disagree more radically than anything foreseen by the Constitution's authors. The Constitution is a fine document, but a nation which disagrees as much as this one does on fundamental issues cannot pass consistent laws which satisfy both sides. The only possible outcomes I can see are 1) continued chaos, with both sides claiming to represent the *true* spirit of Liberty, 2) the capitulation of one side and the dominance of the other, or 3) separation into two nations. Personally, I favor #3, but I expect #2, and I expect the Rationalist factions to institute fairly oppressive restrictions on religious activity. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Philip K. Weingart Call on God, but row away from philw@sales.imagen.com the rocks. My opinions are not those of my employer. Indian Proverb From news@dazixcon.dazixco.ingr.com Mon Oct 4 10:40:38 1993 Received: from rodan.UU.NET by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA20093; Mon, 4 Oct 93 10:40:38 EDT Received: from relay1.UU.NET by rodan.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-mail-drop) id AA15940; Mon, 4 Oct 93 10:40:36 -0400 Received: from ingr.ingr.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA14062; Mon, 4 Oct 93 10:40:14 -0400 Received: from dazixco.dazixco.ingr.com by ingr.ingr.com (5.65c/1.920611) id AA08930; Mon, 4 Oct 1993 09:39:50 -0500 Received: from dazixcon by dazixco.dazixco.ingr.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11830; Mon, 4 Oct 93 08:39:45 MDT Received: by dazixcon (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01008; Mon, 4 Oct 93 08:39:44 MDT Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Path: lesley.b23b.ingr.com!llburnet From: llburnet@lesley.b23b.ingr.com (Lesley Burnette) Subject: Re: America's Founding Fathers and Christianity Message-Id: <1993Oct4.143933.969@dazixco.ingr.com> Sender: news@dazixco.ingr.com Nntp-Posting-Host: lesley Reply-To: llburnet@lesley.b23b.ingr.com Organization: Intergraph Electronics References: Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1993 14:39:33 GMT Apparently-To: soc-religion-christian@uunet.uu.net In article , af664@yfn.ysu.edu (Frank DeCenso, Jr.) writes: |> Does anyone have a list of quotes from America's early |> founding fathers (with preferably complete documentation)? |> I recently saw 2 videos from Wallbuilders (David Barton's |> ministry) called _America's Godly Heritage_ and _Education |> and the Founding Fathers_. I was blown away! I am going to |> get some of his materials and hopefully the transcripts with |> documentation. But I was hoping someone had an ASCII list of |> quotes. Thanks. |> Frank Frank, you can buy the full transcript with references from Wallbuilders for $2.95, PO Box 397 Aledo, Texas 76008, (817) 441-6044. Here are some quotes (w/o many references from the video): * Of all the habits and dispositions which lead to political prosperity, * * religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man * * claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great * * pillars. George Washington * * Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality * * can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. George Washington * * Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is * * wholly inadequate to the government of any other. John Quincy Adams * * As nations cannot be rewarded or punished in the next world they must be * * in this. By an inevitable chain of causes and effects, Providence * * punishes national sins by national calamities. George Mason * It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ! Patrick Henry Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the World, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [July 4]? Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission on earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity? John Quincy Adams Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty - as well as the privilege and interest - of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers. John Jay, first Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise. In this sense and to this extent, our civilizations and our institutions are emphatically Christian. U.S. Supreme Court, Church of the Holy Trinity vs. U.S.; 143 U.S. 457 (1892) [this was directed to a school that wanted to teach morality but not religion] Whatever strikes at the root of Christianity tends manifestly to the dissolution of civil government. People vs. Ruggles; 8 Johns 545, 547 (1811) and later cited by the Supreme Court By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed on the same equal footing. Runkel V. Winemiller; 4 Harris and McHenry 276,288 (Sup.Ct.Md. 1799) Had the people [the Founding Fathers], during the Revolution, had a suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, that Revolution would have been strangled in its cradle. At the time of the adoption of the Constitution and the amendments, the universal sentiment was that Christianity should be encouraged, but not any one sect [denomination]... In this age, there is no substitute for Christianity... That was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants. House of Representatives report on separating Christian principles from government, March 27, 1854 The great, vital, and conservative element in our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. House Judiciary Committee, May 1854 We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of the government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves....according to the Ten Commandments of God. James Madison Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds... reason and experience forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. George Washington, Farewell Address Let it simply be asked, "Where is the security for life, for reputation, and for property, if the sense of religious obligation deser?" George Washington, Farewell Address The precepts of philosophy...laid hold of actions only...[But Jesus] pushed his scrutinies into the heart of man, erected his tribunal in the region of the thoughts, and purified the waters at the fountain head. Thomas Jefferson, from "The Life of Thomas Jefferson" by William Linn We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion...Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. John Adams Every person appointed to public office shall say "I do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration. Delaware Constitution, 1785 And each member [of the legislature], before he takes his seat, shall make and subscribe the following declaration: "I do believe in one God, the Creator and Governor of the universe, the rewarder of the good and the punisher of the wicked. Pennsylvania and Vermont constitutions, 1785 If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We've been assured in the sacred writing that, "Except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it" Benjamin Franklin And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis - a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that His justice cannot sleep forever. Thomas Jefferson Sir, I am not at all concerned about that, for I know that the Lord is always on the side of the right. But it is my constant anxiety and prayer that I and this nation should be on the Lord's side. Abraham Lincoln He who shall introduce into public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world. Benjamin Franklin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "No man shall...suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument maintain, their opinion in matters of religion." --Thomas Jefferson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Lesley ********************************************************************* * "I'm here to get you back on schedule" Darth Vadar, Star Wars * ********************************************************************* From mjr4u@maxwell.acc.virginia.edu Wed Oct 6 21:36:21 1993 Received: from rodan.UU.NET by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA11452; Wed, 6 Oct 93 21:36:21 EDT Received: from relay1.UU.NET by rodan.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-mail-drop) id AA19776; Wed, 6 Oct 93 21:36:20 -0400 Received: from virginia.edu (via uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU) by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA22646; Wed, 6 Oct 93 21:36:17 -0400 Received: from maxwell.acc.virginia.edu by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id aa02222; 6 Oct 93 21:36 EDT Received: by maxwell.acc.Virginia.EDU (4.1/1.34) id AA29447; Wed, 6 Oct 93 21:28:07 EDT Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Path: mjr4u From: Matthew Jerome Rush Subject: Re: America's Founding Fathers and Christianity Message-Id: <1993Oct7.012754.29407@Virginia.EDU> Organization: University of Virginia References: Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1993 01:27:54 GMT Apparently-To: soc-religion-christian@uunet.uu.net weingart@napa.imagen.com writes: > > Jefferson was a Unitarian, and believed things like this. Madison was > trained by Witherspoon, who was a traditional Protestant. Paine was > basically an atheist. Franklin toyed with Deism in his early years > but was a more traditional Protestant during the Revolution, although > he was never a great man of faith. Washington was a traditional > Protestant. The blanket assertion that "most were deists" simply > isn't accurate, any more than the assertion that they were all > modern Protestants. To say that Jefferson was a Unitarian is not accurate either. He said that he was of "a sect by himself." It is true that he did not believe in any supernatural aspects of religion, that Jesus was a deity, or in the holy trinity. Jefferson called himself a true Christian, following the teachings of Jesus. That wasn't as easy as it may seem, though. Jefferson once said that finding the teachings of Jesus in the bible was like finding "diamonds in a dunghill." He is sometimes tagged as a deist, which is not quite right either. The quote "I fear for my country when I think our god is just" (referring to slavery) has already appeared, which means he may have believed in Divine Providence, but there are other places where this conclusion is confounded. > > Christianity was not the same then as it is today, but most of the > signers of the Declaration believed in Divine Providence, that is, > that God DOES intervene in the affairs of men, where Deism holds that > God DOES NOT intervene in the affairs of men. > > > They *thought* they were writing to people who disagreed on specific > religious practices, but who agreed on the major behavioral issues. > They were correct at the time. Today, we do not have a common standard > of right and wrong. There is a war between Rationalist-based systems > and Christian/Judeo-based systems, which disagree more radically than > anything foreseen by the Constitution's authors. > Matt Path: christian Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian From: barn@convex.com (Tim Barney) Subject: Re: Constitutional Origin summary Organization: CONVEX Computer Corp, Richardson, TX USA Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu I think this is helpful, and so post. All the quotes come from a book "The Myth Of Separation" by David Barton. The facts come from history. For a copy of this book, contact Wallbuilder Press at (817)-441-6044. ISBN 0-925279-18-8 Mr Barton is quite the student of history, researching original documents. Typing errors, and there are many, are mine. I paraphrase except where quoting. ------------------------------------------------------- The Origin and Meaning of the phrase: Separation of Church and State At the time of the Consitution, the states encouraged Christianity, but no state allowed an exclusive state church. Indeed, on both points, the Constitution prohibited a state church, while many of the authors of the Constitution were of the opinion that any politician holding office was not qualified to govern unless he subscribed to Christian principles. How is this explained? Let's see. Many people then remembered a state church(Angelican) in the past, where one denomination ruled over another. In Danbury Connecticut, the Danbury Baptist Association wrote to President Thomas Jefferson in 1981 expressing concern about a rumor that a particular denomination was soon to become the official national religion. President Jefferson wrote a response on January 1, 1802: "I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." Why the phrase 'wall of separation' ? Creativity? No. The president was assuring a common ground necessary between author and audiance. A leader of the Baptists, Roger Williams wrote of a wall spearating the church and the 'wilderness of the world' and spoke thusly concerning keeping the world OUT OF THE CHURCH. The idea of a wall was introduced as a one direction wall, preventing world from influencing the church, but not preventing the church from influencing world. President Jefferson spoke of the wall likewise substituting government for world. Indeed, Jefferson spoke thus: Kentucky Resolutions of 1798: "No power over freedom of religion.... [is] delegated to the United States by the Constitution." Second Inaugural Address 1805: "In matters of religion I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent of the powers of the General [federal] Government." Letter to Samual Adams in 1808: [Not quoted] he says the federal government has no authority to touch religion, but .. "It must then rest with the States, as far as it can be in any human authority." So clearly the Federal Government is not to infringe on religion in ANY way. What about religion influencing the Government? In many of the State Consitutions (maryland, vermont, virginia, others) the founding fathers wrote up after the writing up the federal Constitution. In these constitutions a requirement for holding public office was "a declaration of belief in the Christian religion", "And I do acknowledge the scriptures...and own and profess the Christian religion.", "the right to hold office were to be extended to persons of any Christian denomination." The Founding Fathers thought it so important and necessary for a Christian influence to govern this nation, that they put these requirements in the states' constitutions. They were adamently opposed to establishing A denomination, but adamently were against a non-christian holding office, convinced such were unfit to govern. How did this phrase get twisted to mean the opposite of the author's use of it? First, Thomas Jefferson was not part of the meetings where the Declaration of Independence was drawn up. He wasn't at the Consitutional Convention. So the phrase not only *** Did NOT come from the Constitution or Declaration, it also *** Did NOT come from an author of the Constitution or Declaration. Second, in 1878 in Reynolds v. United States, the Supreme Court referenced Jefferson's phrase and used it in an opposite manner with which Jefferson used it (to separate the State from the Church). They ruled that the the US government could interfere with the Morman church at that time to prohibit poligamy, saying the government could not interfere with denominational differences, but could on the basis of basic Christian principles. And again, in 1947 in Everson v Board of Education, the Supreme Court took just the 8 words out of Jefferson's letter "a wall of separation between church and state" completely out of context and use it for a motto of a new agenda - separation of basic Christian principles from the public arenas. This done, it started declaring unconstitutional state laws declaring voluntary school prayer, posting the 10 commandments in schools, etc. "There is probably no other instance in America's history where words spoken by an individual have become the law of the land. Jefferson's remark now carries more weight in judicial circles than does the writing of any other Founder." - David Barton "William James is considered by many to be the father of modern psycholgy. He was a strong advocate and early pioneer of the "separation" doctrine. Perhaps a statement attributed to him reveals the reason that Jefferson's misapplied phrase has had so much impact on the nation's policy: "There is nothing so absurd but if you repeat it often enough people will believe it." The doctrine of separation of church and state is absurd; it has been repeated often; and people have believed it. It is amazing what conitnually hearing about separation of church and state can do to a nation!" - David Barton --------------------------------------- And this: If you value the designs and intentions of the designers and founders of our country and government, who laid the foundation, then this is of interest to you: "The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." John Quincy Adams "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religiousnists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!" Patrick Henry "Providence has given to our people the chioce of their rulers, and it is the duty...of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." John Jay, First Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court [Echoing sentiments by most Founders of this nation, by the way] A French historian visiting the United States in the 1830's made these observations: "Unpon my arrival in the Unisted States, the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention... The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them concieve the one without the other... Religion in America...must...be regarded as the foremost of the political institutions of that country...From the earliest settlement of the emigrants, politics and religion contracted an alliance which has never been dissolved." Alexis de Tocqueville "No free government now exists in the world unless where Christianity is acknowledged, and is the religion of the country... Its foundations are broad and strong, and deep... it is the purest system of morality, the firmest auxiliary, and only stable support of all human laws... Christianity is part of the common law." US Supreme Court, Updegraph v. Commonwealth, 1826 -- Tim Barney, Convex Computers - Detroit,Michigan Office: barn@convex.com My opinions are just that - opinions and mine at that. From news@yuma.acns.colostate.edu Mon Nov 29 13:01:03 1993 Received: from ncar.ucar.edu by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA25530; Mon, 29 Nov 93 13:01:03 EST Received: from yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU by ncar.ucar.EDU (5.65/ NCAR Central Post Office 03/11/93) id AA24220; Mon, 29 Nov 93 11:00:59 MST Received: by yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA78531; Mon, 29 Nov 1993 18:00:58 GMT Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1993 18:00:58 GMT From: news@yuma.acns.colostate.edu (News Account) Message-Id: <9311291800.AA78531@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> To: soc-religion-christian@ncar.ucar.edu Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Path: pyeatt From: pyeatt@CS.ColoState.EDU (Larry Pyeatt) Subject: Re: Presidential religious affilations Originator: pyeatt@CS.ColoState.EDU Sender: news@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (News Account) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1993 18:00:56 GMT References: Nntp-Posting-Host: kottke.cs.colostate.edu Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department Lines: 49 In article , Seanette.Pierce@f18.n356.z1.fidonet.org (Seanette Pierce) writes: |> Tom: |> >|> Then perhaps you would like to explain why 5 of the first ten US |> >|> Presidents were not Christian.... |> > Name them. |> According to the 1989 Information Please Almanac: [list shortened] John Adams 2nd president Unitarian Thomas Jefferson 3rd president Deist (Unitarian) James Madison 4th president Episcopalian ( debatable ) John Quincy Adams 6th president Unitarian William Henry Harrison 9th president Episcopalian ( debatable ) |> By my count, that's at least seven Christians. The Adamses could well have |> believed in Christ as Savior, as could Jefferson. FWIW. |> Seanette A few minutes in the library shows that John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and John Quincy Adams were most probably deists. As to Madison, his religious beliefs he kept mostly to himself. However, it is apparent that there was a period in his life when he was searching for truth in religion and philosophy. He never admitted his beliefs in public, but there is some evidence to suggest that he may not have considered himself to be Christian: close relationship with Jefferson ( an admitted deist ) strong supporter of religious freedom strong opponent of state religion did not use the word god in any part of the constitution made several statements about the danger of organized Christianity believed in "complete separation of church and state" There are similar questions about Harrison's beliefs. In view of the fact that two of the five are debatable, I will change my question. The original claim was: "They were adamently opposed to establishing A denomination, but adamently were against a non-christian holding office, convinced such were unfit to govern." My New Question: Then perhaps you would like to explain why 3 of the first 6 presidents were not Christian? -- Larry D. Pyeatt All standard disclaimers apply. pyeatt@cs.colostate.edu Void where prohibited.